Curse

Orry · Feb 24, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Obsidian Flesh Not needed. The movement speed penalty is more than enough to prevent it from being used in a "speed clear." Nerfing this skill goes beyond nerfing just speed clears and hits hardest on farming, tank-n-spank playstyle, and UW balanced clears.

Without faster options the Obsidian Flesh clear would still be faster than balanced. Tank-n-spank gameplay should be nerfed, there are prot skills for a reason and AI shouldn't target a tank anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

600/smite. I've said this before, but it bears repeating in big red letters: DO NOT NERF PROT SPIRIT OR SPIRIT BOND. These skills are too important to every aspect of legitimate play to mess with. It would be OK to nerf the smite half of 600/smite into the ground. It would also be OK to nerf SoA or to fix its order of application so that you can't trigger BalthSpirit/EBond or Spirit Bond off a hit that's reduced to zero, or both. Just keep your hands off PS and SB.

I would like to see spirit bond trigger after damage reduction and prot spirit have a set damage limit that scales with attribute, starting at 59 at 0 protection prayers and working down to 48 at 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Auspicious Parry. Worthless for general-purpose play because it means no IAS. Maybe useful for SY! uptime builds, if the duration was shortened so that the adrenaline gain was reliable.

You can cancel Auspicious Parry with an IAS stance and get your adrenaline on demand.

Just some things that stood out in your notes.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 24, 2010, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Necros are already paying for some of their skills

Yes, their skills. But those aren't the ones we're concerned about, are they?

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 24, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I think you might also have missed the synergy between the new DBS and DS. With r10 delver, DBS is 100% maintainable, been running it that way myself for over a year.

To me, with an already good bar for when not attacking squishy casters, the new DBS is going to be Ursanway v2.

Martin Alvito · Feb 24, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

TL;DR

Just kidding. Couple of points:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]600/smite. I've said this before, but it bears repeating in big red letters: DO NOT NERF PROT SPIRIT OR SPIRIT BOND. These skills are too important to every aspect of legitimate play to mess with. It would be OK to nerf the smite half of 600/smite into the ground. It would also be OK to nerf SoA or to fix its order of application so that you can't trigger BalthSpirit/EBond or Spirit Bond off a hit that's reduced to zero, or both. Just keep your hands off PS and SB.

They won't. The problem has never been that 605/Smite is an efficient tank. Plenty of builds can hold aggro with the support of another bar. The problem has always been as follows:
- the mechanic that permits you to deal damage by taking damage
- the ability of the build to take a lot of damage to deal back without dying
- the complete lack of risk for the damage dealer

605s tanking without a legit damage threat isn't a big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Obsidian Flesh Not needed. The movement speed penalty is more than enough to prevent it from being used in a "speed clear." Nerfing this skill goes beyond nerfing just speed clears and hits hardest on farming, tank-n-spank playstyle, and UW balanced clears.

If you nerf SF but not OF, everyone will just swallow a cupcake and a green rock to go with their red rock and proceed as before. The only thing that OF can't clear is the Chamber, and it isn't much slower with SF elsewhere due to the consumables. Blame this nerf on Nicholas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Auspicious Parry. Worthless for general-purpose play because it means no IAS. Maybe useful for SY! uptime builds, if the duration was shortened so that the adrenaline gain was reliable.

Now that depends entirely on the definition of "when it ends". You can do some very ugly things with adrenaline cycling AP and Frenzy if cancelling the stance with another stance "ends" it. The update is either hacks or worthless. Hard to tell which without testing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]"Fear Me!" Remarkably overpowered.

Yeah, that's a bad buff right there. The really irritating thing is that this won't see use on Warriors. It will be absolute hacks on a Sin with high energy cost, low recharge skills. Spamming strings on an R/A with Shattering Assault just got a whole lot easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Shove. To be worthwhile as an elite, it would at least have to be better than brawling headbutt, which it isn't.[/list]

Oh, I don't know about that. It'd beat Wastrel's Collapse as a string-starter. Half the recharge? Yikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Steelfang Slash. First: Is this change applying to PvE too? Second: Questions have been raised about infinite quarter-lock builds with this and the cheaper Backbreaker (plus some other things).[/list][/list][/list]

Well, we used to string BBs back in the day with it. That merited a nerf. Now it'll be even easier to string BBs. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

General conclusion: balance team doesn't play melee.

I've glossed over a lot of important points because these are the key issues with the update. PvE is easy enough that I'm not overly concerned about Necros suddenly outhealing Monks. If it happens, the problematic skills can just be reverted. They won't be (ANet never does that, they always nerf something else, because they never make stupid decisions), but that'd be the appropriate resolution if the Blood changes turn out to be hacks.

Chthon · Feb 24, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orry

I would like to see spirit bond trigger after damage reduction and prot spirit have a set damage limit that scales with attribute, starting at 59 at 0 protection prayers and working down to 48 at 12.

Yes on scaling the trigger point.

No on triggering after reduction. No one would use Spirit Bond in PvE if they did that because it would become a strict alternative, and a strictly inferior alternative, to PS/ProtBond.

Quote:

You can cancel Auspicious Parry with an IAS stance and get your adrenaline on demand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Now that depends entirely on the definition of "when it ends". You can do some very ugly things with adrenaline cycling AP and Frenzy if cancelling the stance with another stance "ends" it. The update is either hacks or worthless. Hard to tell which without testing it.

I had not thought of that possibility. You're correct. If you can get the adrenaline by canceling to Frenzy, then cancel Frenzy into AParry, and repeat, it would be very overpowered.

Quote:

If you nerf SF but not OF, everyone will just swallow a cupcake and a green rock to go with their red rock and proceed as before. The only thing that OF can't clear is the Chamber, and it isn't much slower with SF elsewhere due to the consumables. Blame this nerf on Nicholas.

Ouch, you're right. Stupid consumables.

Quote:

Oh, I don't know about that. It'd beat Wastrel's Collapse as a string-starter. Half the recharge? Yikes.

That sounds like a PvP build. I was talking PvE.

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 24, 2010, 02:46 AM // 02:46

I never use cons if I can avoid it, but I can't help notice who was watching The Matrix the most and when, tell me if you agree..

"If you eat the red pill..."

Lol.

snaek · Feb 24, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Barbed Signet, the most dramatic of these, is being reworked as a 1…24 second self-buff that inflicts bleeding on your target whenever you cast a Necromancer spell on a foe. This very powerful, non-removable buff is balanced by a hefty 12% health sacrifice.

woah woah easy now...dun wanna get too dramatic!!! lol

who ever wrote this copy is hilarious--and i hope that its sarcasm. you do realize that bleeding is one of the (if not the) least threatening condition in the game?

i fear the new hoards of barbed signet+life siphon necros that will arise with the upcoming update. they will surely overtake the the dying breed of apply poison rangers.

Arkantos · Feb 24, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

woah woah easy now...dun wanna get too dramatic!!! lol

who ever wrote this copy is hilarious--and i hope that its sarcasm. you do realize that bleeding is one of the (if not the) least threatening condition in the game?

i fear the new hoards of barbed signet+life siphon necros that will arise with the upcoming update. they will surely overtake the the dying breed of apply poison rangers.

It's more of a PvP change. The ability to spam a condition while dealing damage is going to be threatening in condition heavy builds.

masterjer1 · Feb 24, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

What they should be nerfing are those damn consumables.

snaek · Feb 24, 2010, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkantos

t's more of a PvP change. The ability to spam a condition while dealing damage is going to be threatening in condition heavy builds.

oh its definitely a decent skill...i just think whoever wrote the copy is hillarious, and don't think it will be as "powerful" as they advertise it to be. i'm not sure why this skill was given extra treatment with regards to copy, as if they really want to push this skill into meta usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin alvito

Yeah, that's a bad buff right there. The really irritating thing is that this won't see use on Warriors. It will be absolute hacks on a Sin with high energy cost, low recharge skills. Spamming strings on an R/A with Shattering Assault just got a whole lot easier.

i'm not sure why your mentioning r/a's? 1st of all, shattering assault was mentioned as moving to critical strikes and 2nd, r/a's can't run a warrior skill??? still... i think i'd rather see fear me a/w's rather than shattering assault r/a's. not because it'd be less imba (it could possibly be more imba), but because it'd be less lame.

drkn · Feb 24, 2010, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

It's more of a PvP change. The ability to spam a condition while dealing damage is going to be threatening in condition heavy builds.

i was pretty sure we've already had a pvp balance and that upcoming one was meant to be pve.

mage767 · Feb 24, 2010, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Oh noes, it seems that I misread your original post. Dyslexia for the lose.

I am so very sorry, please forgive my inadequacy. Now then, since you've proven how high and mighty you are above me, please enlighten me further on how exactly you would make a mesmer build that can roll through pve while playing a significant role for their team? So far, I haven't gotten any good responses.

You don't need the AP build to roll through hard mode....PM me in game, and I will show you how FD > AP in PvE HM.

IGN: Teresa The Claymore / Punishing Bad boys

drkn · Feb 24, 2010, 06:45 AM // 06:45

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I think lowering the cost and recharge of mesmer spells makes alot of sense for the faster pace in PvE, but please none of this AoE changes. If you wanted to play nuker you shouldn't have picked mesmer to begin with.

we don't want nukers. we want useful crowd control instead one-target 'control'. as in pve, you fight a big crowd, not one - more or less - strong enemy with it's own brain as in pvp.
but there's a problem in the game's mechanism. example: if we want crowd control, we'd make empathy aoe. we could add the clause 'if this hex ends early, target is blinded for 10s'. and we could change the skill totally so it won't deal damage... but... what would it do then?
there's not much a hex like that can do instead of damaging. and lowering damage just because it's gone aoe is still thrashing the skill. as far as it comes to empathy, i think that people forget that it's indirect, conditional damage and it lasts short - and even though mobs tend to damage themselves with it, that's not always true and even multiple empathy rarely kills the target. the above was just an example, anyways.

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You don't need the AP build to roll through hard mode....PM me in game, and I will show you how FD > AP in PvE HM.

no no no, please no 'pm me in game and i'll show you tricks'. post everything here for the sake of discussion and defending your view or keep it without anything to back it up, as most other people here.

e: i don't know how to explicit it enough, but we KNOW that mesmers are NOT about the damage.
the problem is that they are not about anything right now.
i'd even prefer skills that make mobs attack each other, that make mobs turn green for a few seconds (so they won't kill you but can't be attacked either; it might be ether nightmare reworked and tied to FC, so it's pve only, takes pve skill slot, cuts one of the non-mes-primairy abused skills and limits the vast pool of health degen we already had; not working on bosses and boss-like obviously), that interrupt their skills (please don't talk about direct interrupts again, as they're shitty in hm and rangers can do it better, with more rupts disabling the skill after rupted, with more damage, better recharge, and so on), that render them useless (as blindness on a warrior). bring them on. that's what mesmer should be about.
but with the attitude we've found in TK and ANet so far, i don't believe in total reworking of skills. so at least bring them to pve friendly level, anyhow.

upier · Feb 24, 2010, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Yes, their skills. But those aren't the ones we're concerned about, are they?

I am confused in regards to what you were trying to say.
The necro skills are supposed to have a higher cost due to SR, just as mesmer skills are supposed to have a longer cast time due to FC, but if you look at them it is clear that the best necro options either have a cost that fits the skill or is quite underpriced.
Unless we are dealing with minions, there is just no reasonable explanation why the necros should have that much energy - but even in that case it would be just much easier to simply reduce the price of minions to some 5 (10 for Fiends) and convert their cost to a something like 25% health sacrifice and then trash SR.

But as long as A.Net feels that the way to "balance" things is to overpower everything - I am fine with SR since it allows my assassin to be under Orders at pretty much any given moment.

Hong Kong Evil · Feb 24, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

most of them sounds good

zwei2stein · Feb 24, 2010, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Yeti Smash. Close, but not quite. So close that it's painful. Lose-all-adrenaline is simply a no-go in PvE because of the anti-synergy with SY!. End of story. Even if you make Yeti Smash into a fricking non-elite Earthshaker, it still wouldn't be worth using. The though of a non-elite Earthshaker that isn't worth using makes me sad.

It was completelly unnecesary. Yeti Smash is staple skill for hammer heroes as it provides modest armor ignoring AOE.

ES-With-adrenaline loss is completelly redundant on those bars as they already use ES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Cruel Was Daoshen. Underbuffed. Still bad.

Irony is that this change would work well with armor-senstitive AR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Auspicious Parry. Worthless for general-purpose play because it means no IAS. Maybe useful for SY! uptime builds, if the duration was shortened so that the adrenaline gain was reliable.
[edit: It's unclear if you would gain the adrenaline by canceling AParry into another stance. If that's the case, then it would be quite overpowered.][*]Defensive Stance/Deflect Arrows/Shield Stance/Soldier's Defense. All worthless because they mean no IAS. Maybe the adrenaline pumpers might replace Enraging Charge in builds that use a Frenzy/Enraging combo, but I doubt it.

As pointed out, you can cancel AP and DS for adrenal gains.

Also, with consumables, you do not need IAS comming from skills, you can stay in one of those denfensive srtances and still reap benefits (which are not exactly small.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]"To the Limit!" Adrenaline gain is still not enough on a 15sec recharge. Can't imagine picking this over Fear Me for procing under-shout status.

Typical "tank" stacked health for pulls. This is going to be not just yet-another health stacking skill: It is not elite, not with only 1/2 uptime and not ending on attack. IT actually has positive effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]"Charge!" Brilliant buff, but IMS remains a dubious use of an elite slot for general-purpose play.[*]"None Shall Pass!" The requirement that foes be moving pretty much does this skill in.[*]"Retreat!" This has been pointed out to me as a very strong running skill. The end conditions make it obviously useless for general-purpose play.

Runner skills mostly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Barbed Signet + Oppressive Gaze. These look weak. Bleeding, in and of itself, is worthless. So Barbed Signet is junk unless it provides amazing combo value. There's potential that OGaze will deliver that. But only if (1) Barbed Signet causes bleed on every affected foe and not just the target (ie it can't work like GoI does), (2) Barbed Sig causes bleed before OGaze checks for a condition, and (3) OGaze has a at least "nearby" range. IF these skills work that way, then I'd consider them worthwhile. Otherwise, they are junk and I'll just bring Enfeebling Blood at a low curse spec.

Theeese are going to be decent if a bit dubious filler for discord builds.

They are also going to be quite decent filler for Mandragorway builds.

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Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Jaundiced Gaze. Is it keeping the 8-sec recharge?

It is designed to self synergize to be efficient enchant removal (that is combated with enemy echant removal), so i guess, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Blood Bond. Game-changingly overpowered. This skill runs circles around any other party-healing in the game. The big question in my mind is whether it's so strong that a team can cut a backliner and get by with just 1 ER ele plus this on a midline orders necro.

Minion masters are also going to love this.

40 health per attack is incredibly strong. It will be a bit clumsy for general PvE play as humans casters rarely attack (even if they are not casting), but when playing with AI you will feel its full impact.

Where it will shine is farming as it is incredible on-attack health engine, just make W/N and spam AOE attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Demonic Flesh. Just when I thought that Blood Bond was surely the most ridiculous skill of the update, here comes Demonic Flesh. First: It hardly matters what the amount is; AoE lifesteal on an attack spammer is going to be pretty insane. Second: There's a couple of bugs to worry about. Exhausting Assault and Blinding Powder are reported to count as "used" even when they "fail," opening up infinite spam potential. Third: It's unclear whether this is a self-only skill or can be cast on other allies. Fourth: Is the duration staying the same? A bad uptime ratio could break this skill. Sadly, uptime ratios fall diametrically into "~100%" and "crap," so this can't be balanced by tweaking the recharge.

It does not sound that good to me: failing-skills would not activate it (anet has had enough trouble with failing skills)

What will kill this is that rate of damage is going to have cap (you have to spam some skills and those skills are going to take time to activate and resources to use). And possibly range: it is going to be mostly only usefull on frontline.

Last thing that will keep it from paly is the fact that is activates on skill use, not target hit so it will not multiply with multi-target attacks.

I'd wait and see it in action, but my guess is it will come prenerfed and be only worth as filler when partying with melees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]Aggressive Refrain/Soldier's Fury. No. Permanent -20 is worse than cracked armor, even with the H+H AI problems. People who say otherwise just don't know how to make decent heroes. The correct solution to this problem would be to fix the H+H AI to heavily deprioritize cracked armor on a paragon who's not under attack. The easy solution would be to just remove the malus from these skills for PvE. Making the -20 armor permanent isn't acceptable.

This is however exactly what most players wanted. Frankly, Malus is pointless anyway: if you are being attacked enough that -20 armor is going to hurt you, then there are deeper problems than just having bad monk builds.

In PvE, you should not be meatbag for mosnters...

It could be more interesting, of course. While Attacking malus for example

spun ducky · Feb 24, 2010, 08:36 AM // 08:36

So I haven't been in the farming build seen in a while but from looking over the notes blood magic seems to be a huge part of a new farming meta if you look at demonic flesh and blood bond. I would further suggest that this is more than likely true as in the past day I noticed the superior blood magic runes have doubled in price and probably will go up for a while.

I know speculation always happens however unless the skills are completely different from the preview notes I think they are going to become a standard on most team farm builds. I for one have grabbed a few superior blood magic runes just in case.

Xenomortis · Feb 24, 2010, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

You don't need the AP build to roll through hard mode....PM me in game, and I will show you how FD > AP in PvE HM.

Your secret Fevered Dreams build is hardly a secret, I assure you.

Looking at these changes, I don't see too much being changed. Hammer warriors are always going to use Earthshaker, although a couple of skills might get swapped (perhaps Belly Smash, but only if the blind isn't too short).

Lamentation is still poor.
Destructive was Glaive still won't save lightning damage for PvE.
Spirit Boon Strike needs to compete with Summon Spirits in PvE for a spirit heal, but might work on heroes.

I would like the change to Charge, except I would never bring it and you took it away from all the Henchmen.

Blood of the Aggressor - a nice way for a blood nec to inflict Weakness without speccing into Curses, but meh.

Life Siphon is still shit.

Demonic Flesh - depends on numbers and uptime. Runs the risk of being overpowered or being shit.

Ravenous Gaze - you've confused me a bit here. You've changed a lot of blood skills to being more support based but you've changed this to a very obvious damage skill. The line is now more ill-equipped for that. It may work with Demonic Flesh depending on uptime, but the 10sec recharge means that for general play it's a no-no.

Oppressive Gaze - is this for PvP too? Conditions are seldom worthwhile in PvE and the damage has been trivialised. I get the direction you've gone with it though.

Barbed Signet - Obvious made with synergy with the above in mind. If this is for PvP too, you may have made this too strong. Recharge?

Blood Bond - I like this change. This is a very strong support option for an Orders Necro. Perhaps a little too powerful, but I doubt it will remove the necessity for a 2-man backline. It will make their job much easier though vs pressure on the frontline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Signet of Spirits. Yeah, that was OP. Nerf deserved. My only concern is the affect on 4 Horsemen. With SF and OF out, if SoS can no longer hold 1 side either, that quest gets a lot harder.

Not really. The SoS Rit seldom killed anything, all he had to do was stall spawns on one side. Unless they seriously weaken the spirits, then it won't be a problem.

I would comment on more of the skills, but I haven't the time right now.

Gill Halendt · Feb 24, 2010, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Unless they seriously weaken the spirits, then it won't be a problem.

I agree.

They seem to have just toned down damage a bit (25 @ 15 Channeling, against 32), together with an increased recharge (20s -> 30s).

Those changes aren't breaking the skill, IMO.

Lord Nibiru · Feb 24, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

hahah, I hope you don't think mesmers are meant to do damage?!
you fail at this game if you think so, they were never meant to do kill stuff by clicking 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 skills!
They are to trick and play against your opponent!

Mesmers DO need some update for skills that kinda doesn't work well or are never used. But mesmers will NOT get any dmg skill or buff so they can go solo elite places hahaha.

btw, Mitch from KMD is in test crew, and if u know about Guild Wars and Mesmers then you wouldn't know that he is one of the best mesmers out there. And he clearly knows what I am talking about.

Paragons got more then one build...imbagon,motigon,dagger spammer are one of the best out there and 90% of players playing a Paragon use those builds.
And I even think it has great build for FoW.
But I am with you tho, a lot of skills are not used and need some update.
But yet again, what you want is easy win button and build that kills everything in 2 sec....well, you will not get those.

Dervishes are okay, but it seems that there are professions that are doing their job better then them, like assassins do.
Which you crew doesn't like and I can get it why. It needs some update yes, but they got interesting builds and you got a great number of them that you can play.

Elementalists...they are just getting buffs! All those PvE-only skills are goddamn buff for them.
There is none profession that got so many buffs in this game as they did.(well, maybe ritualists)
HM is maybe harder for you to nuke stuffs in 5 sec....so what?
Do you really think they are supposed to do that?
You don't get any problem in NM, they are OP if you ask me.
There is maybe just a little nerf they got...and it was about aoe effect, monsters started to move from aoe..WOOW, they actually wanted NOT to get dmg?

Really guys...you just want easy mode and when it gets little harder you cry like a babys, stop it and play game if u like it.
Game itself isn't balanced and never will be, but that doesn't means it is a bad game.

Only problem in this game are smart people that make OP builds if you ask me. xD

So yeah, if test crew thinks something needs update they will do it.
Some things are done too late tho, they should nerf all those 600/perma etc farm builds years ago!